Michael Fishman

Guy rebuffs my attempt at cross-promotion

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A report from the trenches:

I’m working on growing my health email newsletter, which I launched a few months ago.

One part of what I’m doing is reaching out to other newsletters to offer to cross-promote. I’ve been contacting newsletters of a similar size to mine, who share some common elements with mine:

– sent out weekly
– news-related
– “proven” — make an emphasis on providing references or sources
– is made up of actual paragraphs of text that people read, rather than just a collection of links

I’ve had a few people take me up on my cross-promotion offer. But one guy, whose weekly newsletter is for people who want to “stay on top of the current issues and that like to read more than just bulletpoints,” was not interested in my offer. He wrote me to say:

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I don’t think this partnership would work out, basically because I’ve done it before and the clicks were very, very low. Also, I don’t think there’s a great overlap in the content of our two newsletters.

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As Dan Kennedy might say about that first reason, if we all stopped doing something if the first time was a fail, the human race would soon die out. There’d be no more babies born.

But what about that other reason? About content overlap?

It’s very sensible to only sell competitive duck herding products to competitive duck herding enthusiasts.

But most offers are not that one-dimensional.

The “world’s greatest list broker,” Michael Fishman, was once tasked with finding new lists to promote an investment newsletter.

Michael suggested a list of buyers of a product called Big Money Pro Golf Secrets. The publisher of the investment newsletter said, “We’ve tried golf lists before, they don’t work for us.”

Michael said, “No problem. It’s not a golf list. Think about who would buy a book called Big Money Pro Golf Secrets. I don’t care if it’s Big Money Pro Flower Secrets. Anybody who would respond to that language is somebody whose door we want to knock on.”

Point being, if you have something that’s not as narrow in appeal as duck herding, there are many dimensions along which you can expand your market, beyond the obvious topic or content or promise of what you’re selling. ​

​ By the way, Michael Fishman is somebody worth listening to. I’ve read and watched and listened to everything I could find online by the guy. I make a habit of occasionally searching the Internet to see if anything new has cropped up.

If you want a place to start, here’s a great interview that Michael Fishman did with Michael Senoff of Hard to Find Seminars:

https://www.hardtofindseminars.com/Michael_Fishman_Interview.htm

Why I didn’t collect my $10.5 million

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Today I found a tantalizing email in my spam folder. The sender was Mrs. Mary J. Parker. The subject line read:

“FROM THE UNITED NATIONS POLICE (UNPOL)”

The email explained UNPOL was contacting me because of some money I’d wired to Nigeria.

This is a bit embarrassing. But a while back, I got another email. It described a unique opportunity to help somebody and get rich at the same time. At least that’s how it seemed.

I wired the money as that first email asked. And I waited to get rich. But I never heard back from anybody, or saw my money again.

Anyways, the email from Mrs. Parker informed me that a bunch of organizations, including “Scotland Yard Police, Interpol, Federal Bureau of Investigation, (FBI) United States of America, the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission (EFCC) of Nigeria and all the African Crime fighter leaders” have been working hard to capture the fraudsters who grabbed my money and the money of other people like me.

These law protection agencies caught a bunch of these “Internet rats.” They retrieved billions of dollars.

And now, to make it up to me, they wanted to send me $10.5 million so I could start a new life. All I had to do was furnish a certain Dr Richard Kelly with $450 and also my correct and valid details.

Now here’s something that might shock you:

I decided to pass up this offer. Even though I’d previously wired money to unknown persons in Nigeria. And even though $10.5 million was on the line. Why I did this is the subject of this post.

Let me set things up by telling you about two direct mail campaigns. The first campaign was written by Gary Bencivenga. It made a generous offer:

Six free issues of Boardroom’s Bottom Line/Personal newsletter, plus a premium book. All for free, no strings attached.

It was such a generous offer that Gary thought it needed a reason why. So he used the idea of a survey.

“Fill out this survey,” Gary’s letter basically said, “and send it back to us. As thanks, we’ll send you six free issues and the book.”

This campaign was a massive success. A bunch of people sent in their surveys and got their trial six months of Bottom Line/Personal.

The trouble is, they didn’t subscribe much when the trial expired. And those who did subscribe didn’t buy much of Boardroom’s other books or offers.

But a control is a control. And so this survey offer kept running.

Until the second campaign. Which was was also written by Gary Bencivenga. And which also made the same generous offer.

But instead of using the free survey, the second campaign sent a 64-page booklet, titled The Little Black Book of Secrets.

This booklet had the most interesting secrets from different issues of Bottom Line/Personal… along with occasional calls-to-action to get your six free issues + bonus.

Result?

The second campaign pulled in only HALF the number of responses of the survey campaign. But twice as many of those people actually paid to subscribe when their trial ended. Plus, these non-gimmick customers bought way more of Boardroom’s other products.

In the long term, the second campaign was the winner, and became the new control. Which brings me back to the email I got from UNPOL.

The people at UNPOL did right by giving me a second opportunity to wire money to Nigeria. That’s standard direct marketing — it’s called having a back end. But here’s the thing:

I’m a greedy and opportunistic person.

Sure, I liked the big promise of being able to get rich quickly. That’s why I wired my money over the first time. But my interest was fleeting, and I’ve already moved on. That’s why I didn’t reply to Mrs. Parker’s offer today.

It’s pretty much the same as those people who filled in a 2-minute survey to get something free from Boardroom. Because hype and impulsiveness can get you lots of buyers… but those buyers can make a wobbly foundation for your business.

As Michael Fishman said once:

“Your selling copy in the prospecting process can actually impact the longevity of a customer with the company. So what I mean by that is if you make very, very big promises for a self-help product, a health or investment product… if you make very, very big promises for that about quick results and overnight success, etc… the kinds of people that will find that believable and ultimately will buy turn out to be folks that are not very committed in the long run to your company.”

But you’ve stuck with me for over 750 words now. Do you feel yourself becoming a bit committed to reading my stuff for the long run? In that case, you might like to subscribe to my daily email newsletter. It’s free, now and in six months’ time. Here’s the optin.

Daily email battleship

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One of the most eye-opening and mind-expanding collections of direct response insights I know of is an interview with Michael Fishman.

For context:

During Gary Bencivenga’s farewell seminar, the only person to get up on stage and present, besides the great Gary himself, was Michael Fishman.

Gary was an A-list copywriter.

Michael was an A-list list broker. (A-list list broker broker?)

In other words, while Gary’s expertise was to come up with creative words…

Michael’s expertise was to find creative lists of people to send Gary’s subtle sales letters to.

But what’s that? You say there’s not much to be creative about in choosing lists?

Well, that’s why that interview was so eye-opening and mind-expanding.

Sure, some of Michael’s work was routine. He had to keep a close eye on which lists were interested in related topics… which lists were hot… which lists were made up of recent, eager buyers, spending good money.

But sometimes, list picking was much less routine. Some of Michael’s work involved a real leap of insight and intuition.

For example:

One offer that Michael worked on is Boardroom’s Big Black Book. This was a typical Boardroom book of secrets — what never to eat on a Greyound bus, that kind of thing.

The Big Black Book​​ was many hundreds of pages long, and it was sold through a sales letter filled with fascination bullets.

And yet, get this:

Michael had the idea to promote the Big Black Book to a list of buyers of manifestation audio course, sold on TV through an infomercial.

Totally different products… totally different markets… totally different formats for marketing… totally different everything.

So why did Michael recommend this manifestation list and why did the list end up working?

That’s the crazy thing. Because this list was made up of buyers of a product called Passion, Power, and Profit.

Get it?

​​Big Black Book… Passion, Power, and Profit.

Michael had the insight that some buyers really respond to alliteration in the name of the product. That’s why the BBB offer turned out to be a good fit for the PPP list.

Like I said, eye-opening and mind-expanding.

This brings me to my offer to you for today:

It’s a little game that you and I can play. I call the game Daily Email Battleship.

This is how you play:

Sign up to my email newsletter. When you get my welcome email, hit reply and write me the names of all the daily emails newsletters you are subscribed to.

I’m not talking about just copywriting and marketing. Anything. Magic, manifestation, or medicine. Any topic or person or business is okay, as long as they email, more or less daily.

And then:

1. If you tell me a newsletter I also subscribe to, it’s a direct hit. I will tell you that. So if you write me to say, “I am on Ben Settle’s list,” I will write back and say, “Great, so am I.”

2. But if you tell me a daily email newsletter I don’t subscribe to… I will counter. And I will tell you a newsletter I subscribe to, which you don’t subscribe to.

3. And if I can’t do that, because you are subscribed to more novel and interesting daily email newsletters than I am, then you win.

And as your prize, I will tell you why I am collecting these email newsletters, and what this has to do with the Michael Fishman story above.

This information might be valuable to you. Or it might just feed your curiosity.

In any case, if you’d like to play, the opening shot is yours.

Avoiding sick-at-the-gut customers

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As I write this, I’m feeling woozy. The ground is swaying under my feet. My stomach is a little sensitive.

I wouldn’t be surprised that when I lay down for the night and I turn out the lights, I will have to run to the bathroom to throw up.

In case you’re wondering, I haven’t been drinking. But I did spend the whole day on a boat.

It was a beautiful sunny day. Fresh air. Clear skies. The contrast of green olive trees and white cliffs and deep blue sea below.

It was a great experience. I didn’t feel anything but excited during the whole day.

But once the day was over, and I stepped off the boat, tired and happy to be back on dry land, that’s when the whole earth started to move beneath my feet.

Now let me switch to a different topic for a second:

Here’s something valuable that A-list direct response marketer Michael Fishman once said in an interview with Jay Abraham:

“The interesting thing is that your selling copy in the prospecting process can actually impact the longevity of a customer with the company. So what I mean by that is if you make very, very big promises for a self-help product, a health or investment product — if you make very, very big promises for that about quick results and overnight success, etc. — the kinds of people that will find that believable and ultimately will buy turn out to be folks that are not very committed in the long very long run to your company because they’re opportunistic about their purchase.”

Michael is saying that hype can hurt your long-term sales because you end up selecting the wrong customers.

The only thing I would add is that hype can also create wrong customers for your business, out of otherwise good people.

Because your prospect goes for a bright and colorful selling experience, designed by somebody like you or me. He spends a long time with you, enjoying the contrast of cool blue promises and big white warnings and a sparkling offer underneath it all.

So your prospect has a great time while you entertain and sell him. He doesn’t feel anything but excited the whole time. But at the end of it, he steps off the boat — by taking you up on your offer — and that’s when the feelings of wooziness and stomach upset hit him.

A part of this reaction is inevitable. But a part of it is within your control. And I’d like to suggest it’s worth controlling yourself.

Because as Michael said in the same interview, direct response is built on repeat business. You rarely make money the first time.

So if you want a profitable business… rather than just a bunch of sick-at-the-gut customers who aren’t worth anything to you… then you might purposefully make your sailing — I mean selling experience — less long, less colorful, and less enjoyable than you know how to do.

For example, I know several ways to hype people up so they will sign up for my email newsletter. But I won’t use them. Instead, if you like marketing and copywriting ideas that can help you build a profitable business… long-term… then here’s where you can join my newsletter, which gives you one new idea each day.

Easier, more powerful prospecting: Thinking like Jay Abraham

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Back in 2006, Jay Abraham, aka “The 9 Billion Dollar Man,” interviewed Michael Fishman, aka “The World’s Greatest List Broker.”

I randomly came across a transcript of this interview a few days ago.

The interview was messy. Jay Abraham had to keep running to the toilet to pee. And he was talkative. For much of the interview, he riffed ad hoc while Michael, who was supposed to be the one sharing his expertise, just kept saying “um-hmmm.”

And yet, while it’s messy, this interview is pure gold.

It’s gold because of the unique insights Michael Fishman has about the psychology of direct response buyers. But the thing I want to share with you today is something Jay Abraham said, right at the end.

Because the whole purpose of this interview was to create a kind of calling card for Michael Fishman. A thing that demonstrates his knowledge and insights, that he could use to drum up new business.

So at the end, Jay Abraham, who might be world champion at spinning up lucrative business ideas, gave Michael two pieces of advice on what to do with the interview.

The second and I suspect less valuable piece of advice was to find potential clients, write to them and say, “A lot of people told me this tape opened up their eyes and made them a bunch of money, thought you might like it.”

This is good. It’s what many businesses, including many direct response businesses, are doing in essence.

But I think it pales in effectiveness to the first piece of advice that Jay gave Michael.

And that was for Michael to go to everybody he knows… ask them to make a list of people they would like to send this tape to… and then to send it, along with their letter of endorsement.

The mathematics definitely checks out. Because if you know a 100 people… and they know a 100 people… suddenly that becomes a very big space. One that you might have a hard time exploring on your own.

Just as important, the psychology checks out. Because there’s a huge wall in the human mind between “known” and “unknown.” And you want to be on the “known” side.

There’s a broader lesson here too. But I saved that for people who are subscribed to my daily email newsletter.

Do you know anybody who might like to get my newsletter? Please write them an email, telling them why, and linking them to this page. And if you yourself want to subscribe, click here.

Why I didn’t collect my $10.5 million

by

Today I found a tantalizing email in my spam folder. The sender was Mrs. Mary J. Parker. The subject line read:

“FROM THE UNITED NATIONS POLICE (UNPOL)”

The email explained UNPOL was contacting me because of some money I’d wired to Nigeria.

This is a bit embarrassing. But a while back, I got another email. It described a unique opportunity to help somebody and get rich at the same time. At least that’s how it seemed.

I wired the money as that first email asked. And I waited to get rich. But I never heard back from anybody, or saw my money again.

Anyways, the email from Mrs. Parker informed me that a bunch of organizations, including “Scotland Yard Police, Interpol, Federal Bureau of Investigation, (FBI) United States of America, the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission (EFCC) of Nigeria and all the African Crime fighter leaders” have been working hard to capture the fraudsters who grabbed my money and the money of other people like me.

These law protection agencies caught a bunch of these “Internet rats.” They retrieved billions of dollars.

And now, to make it up to me, they wanted to send me $10.5 million so I could start a new life. All I had to do was furnish a certain Dr Richard Kelly with $450 and also my correct and valid details.

Now here’s something that might shock you:

I decided to pass up this offer. Even though I’d previously wired money to unknown persons in Nigeria. And even though $10.5 million was on the line. Why I did this is the subject of this post.

Let me set things up by telling you about two direct mail campaigns. The first campaign was written by Gary Bencivenga. It made a generous offer:

Six free issues of Boardroom’s Bottom Line/Personal newsletter, plus a premium book. All for free, no strings attached.

It was such a generous offer that Gary thought it needed a reason why. So he used the idea of a survey.

“Fill out this survey,” Gary’s letter basically said, “and send it back to us. As thanks, we’ll send you six free issues and the book.”

This campaign was a massive success. A bunch of people sent in their surveys and got their trial six months of Bottom Line/Personal.

The trouble is, they didn’t subscribe much when the trial expired. And those who did subscribe didn’t buy much of Boardroom’s other books or offers.

But a control is a control. And so this survey offer kept running.

Until the second campaign. Which was was also written by Gary Bencivenga. And which also made the same generous offer.

But instead of using the free survey, the second campaign sent a 64-page booklet, titled The Little Black Book of Secrets.

This booklet had the most interesting secrets from different issues of Bottom Line/Personal… along with occasional calls-to-action to get your six free issues + bonus.

Result?

The second campaign pulled in only HALF the number of responses of the survey campaign. But twice as many of those people actually paid to subscribe when their trial ended. Plus, these non-gimmick customers bought way more of Boardroom’s other products.

In the long term, the second campaign was the winner, and became the new control. Which brings me back to the email I got from UNPOL.

The people at UNPOL did right by giving me a second opportunity to wire money to Nigeria. That’s standard direct marketing — it’s called having a back end. But here’s the thing:

I’m a greedy and opportunistic person.

Sure, I liked the big promise of being able to get rich quickly. That’s why I wired my money over the first time. But my interest was fleeting, and I’ve already moved on. That’s why I didn’t reply to Mrs. Parker’s offer today.

It’s pretty much the same as those people who filled in a 2-minute survey to get something free from Boardroom. Because hype and impulsiveness can get you lots of buyers… but those buyers can make a wobbly foundation for your business.

As Michael Fishman said once:

“Your selling copy in the prospecting process can actually impact the longevity of a customer with the company. So what I mean by that is if you make very, very big promises for a self-help product, a health or investment product… if you make very, very big promises for that about quick results and overnight success, etc… the kinds of people that will find that believable and ultimately will buy turn out to be folks that are not very committed in the long run to your company.”

But you’ve stuck with me for over 750 words now. Do you feel yourself becoming a bit committed to reading my stuff for the long run? In that case, you might like to subscribe to my daily email newsletter. It’s free, now and in six months’ time. Here’s the optin.

Irrational influence of initial rhyme

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A while ago, I was reading a book titled Born to Be Good.

The book didn’t make a terrible impact on me, and I can’t remember many details of it. However, one little bit did stick with me ever since:

Some of the subchapter titles were along the lines of, “Compassion conspiracy,” or “Nature, nurture, and naughtiness.”

I noticed that each time I was ready to stop reading, these subchapter headings would pull me in and get me to read a bit more.

So of course, since I do sales copywriting, I took note of this.

And I have since been using alliteration (also known as “initial rhyme”) in email subject lines on occasion.

Some of these emails (“Sudden slump in sexual stamina”) did very well. Which made me think I had discovered something new when it comes to writing effective sales copy.

Well, it turns I’m not a copywriting trailblazer. Direct marketers have been on to the power of alliteration for a long while. For example:

List broker and direct mail expert Michael Fishman once mentioned was how he was trying to find new lists to promote a product called The Big Black Book (which was a compilation of secret ways of doing things more effectively).

Michael, list genius that he is, proposed selling this to a list of infomercial buyers of a product called Passion, Power, and Profit (which seems to be about reprogramming your subconscious to achieve your goals).

Now, the two audiences seem to have little in common — except their love of alliterative titles.

And yet that was enough. the Passion, Power, and Profit list wound up buying The Big Black Book.

So what’s the point?

First, alliteration works, particularly in titles, headlines, and subject lines.

Second, never underestimate how crazy and irrational people can be in their buying decisions, and how trivial details can get them to buy.

And finally, if you want help with sales emails that entertain, educated, and engage, you might like to grab a free copy of my upcoming book:

https://bejakovic.com/profitable-health-emails/

Even better than two Michelin stars

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There’s a restaurant in Copenhagen called Noma.

The name is short for “nordisk mad” — Danish for “Nordic food.”

And while that might not sound too appetizing, Noma is quite a destination for gourmands.

In fact, it’s got two Michelin stars — a pretty rare honor that only a small number of restaurants around the world share.

And yet, in spite of all the Michelin stars, there was a time when Noma wasn’t flush with business.

And then, in 2010, out of the blue, Noma came in at the top of the World’s Best 50 Restaurants.

This is a new restaurant list (unlike the Michelin Guides, which have been around for a century).

It kicked off in 2002 as a lark, but it’s since become more successful than anticipated. In fact, it’s become so powerful that it impacts the tourist industries of entire continents.

And it does wonders for individual restaurants:

The day after Noma got the top spot in the World’s 50 Best, a hundred thousand people tried to book a table. Suddenly, finances weren’t an issue any more.

So what’s going on?

How could the upstart World’s 50 Best do so much more for Noma than 2 prestigious but stupid Michelin stars?

For that, let me quote an interview that I just listened to. It’s with Michael Fishman, one of the world’s most successful list brokers, and a guy who has bushels of experience in direct marketing. Says Michael:

“When you give prospects a choice in direct mail, the danger is that they don’t make a choice and that you lose the order. […] The more choices you give and the more effort you embed in the process, the more likely you are to lose an order.”

I think the same reasoning applies to restaurant guides.

The Michelin system might be prestigious, but it requires effort.

After all, there are multiple restaurants all around the world with two or more Michelin stars.

On the other hand, there’s only one restaurant at the top of the World’s Top 50.

Which means no choice.

No effort required.

No chance to give up and say, “Ah to hell with it.”

Maybe you think I’m stretching this too far. But as Michael Fishman puts it, this idea of effort is “excruciatingly sensitive.” Michael illustrated this with the example of a direct mail reply card that required two perforations instead of one. Even such a tiny bit of extra effort reliably lowered response, compared to the simpler option.

Just something to keep in mind when you are designing your offers.

Or setting up your marketing campaigns.

Or writing to your clients.

Speaking of which, I’ve got a no-choice, no-effort offer for you. If you want a free copy of my upcoming book on email marketing, head on over to the following page, and sign up with your email:

https://bejakovic.com/profitable-health-emails/