Jim Camp

Why the girl-and-python show is a great place to negotiate

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Here’s an intriguing (and for writers, a most instructive) scene from one of the greatest films in Hollywood history:

“Christ what a trip. The whole time I’m thinking, what if somebody knows what I got in here? Can you imagine that? Two million dollars on the seat next to me in that plane? Mikey, what the hell’s going on anyway? I’m totally in the dark.”

Mikey picks up the suitcase and carries it off. “The family’s making an investment in Havana. This is a little gift for the President.”

Maybe you recognize this scene. It’s from The Godfather, part 2. ​​Fredo Corleone, the oldest surviving son of the Godfather, is talking to his younger brother Michael, who now heads the Corleone crime family.

Michael recently survived an assassination attempt. He knows his business partner Heyman Roth and Roth’s henchman Johnny Ola were behind it. What he doesn’t know is who inside his own circle betrayed him and collaborated with Roth.

Fredo puts his hands in his pockets as he watches the suitcase disappear.

“Havana’s great!” he says. “My kind of town. Anybody I know in Havana?”

Michael pours himself a glass of water. “Oh… Heyman Roth? Johnny Ola?”

Fredo stares for a bit, trying to pull out a pack of cigarettes from his coat pocket. Finally he manages to get the cigarettes out. He looks away.

​​”No. Never met them.”

A couple weeks ago, I wrote an email about negotiation coach Jim Camp. Camp helped negotiate many billion-dollar deals, but he became famous thanks to his contrarian, oracle-like sayings.

One thing Camp said is that he likes to negotiate in the bathroom. That might sounds contrarian, but it’s not. It’s very literal, and backed by basic human psychology.

For an example, fast forward a bit, to Havana.

​​Fredo isn’t smart or strong enough to run the Corleone family, but he’s a fun guy. He knows all the cool spots. He takes Michael and a few U.S. Senators and judges to a girl-and-python act.

“Watch,” says Fredo, as he pours out glasses of rum. “You’re not gonna believe this.”

A young woman is brought out on stage. She is tied to a kind of ceremonial pillar. Then a man in a silk robe is brought out. Two assistants pull off his silk robe to leave him standing naked in front of the audience.

The guys with Fredo — except Michael, who’s checking his watch — gasp and then start chuckling.

“That thing’s gotta be a fake. Hey Freddie! Freddie! How’d you even find this place?”

Fredo doesn’t take his eyes off the stage. “Johnny Ola told me about this place. He brought me here. I didn’t believe him, but seeing is believing. Old man Roth would never come here, but old Johnny knows these places like the back of his hand.”

Michael doesn’t move. He doesn’t say anything. But he looks like somebody just punched him in the gut. And he turns around, and gives a signal to his man who is standing at the door.

So there you go. The reason to negotiate in the bathroom, or during the girl-and-python act. It’s because barriers come down. Jim Camp explains: “As they go to the bathroom, you ask them a question. They’ll answer. They smile, and they answer the question. It’s a great time to do research.”

I wrote about that in my email couple weeks ago. But then I asked myself, what’s really going on? Is this just a negotiation trick?

Eventually, it dawned on me. It’s not a trick. It’s a bit of very basic human psychology.

Our brain likes to think in discrete events, snapshots, scenes, like a movie. This much is obvious. What’s less obvious and more interesting are the consequences. From a New Yorker article on the topic:

“Walking into a room, you might forget why you came in; this happens, researchers say, because passing through the doorway brings one mental scene to a close and opens another.”

Like I said, a bit of fundamental human psychology.

You can now shrug your shoulders and say, “So what?” That would be a Fredo-like thing to do.

Or you can be more like Michael Corleone, and think about how to adapt, how to use this bit of psychology for your own ends.

That’s what Jim Camp did. That’s what successful magicians do. And successful writers, too. In fact, it’s what I’ve tried to do in this very email.

Let me end there, and point you to an offer you can certainly refuse. It’s my Most Valuable Email training, a kind of man-and-keyboard act. In case you’re a person who likes to take advantage of fundamental human psychology:

https://bejakovic.com/mve/

Why the bathroom is a great place to negotiate

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I walked to the beach this morning. People were out jogging. Others were going into the sea. Some were playing with their dogs. And there I was, listening to a course by negotiation coach Jim Camp, and taking notes on my phone.

“One of the things I like to do is negotiate in the bathroom,” Camp says. “It’s a great place to negotiate.”

To me that sounded like the usual contrary and shocking Camp material. But this one is surprisingly straightforward.

“When are people most exposed?” Camp asks. “I’m not talking about their physical parts. I’m talking about, when are they most relaxed, in their mind? When do they open their mind? When are they most exposed? ‘Well, the fight’s off. Now I’m free to go to the restroom.’ As they go to the restroom, you ask them a question. They’ll answer. They smile, and they answer the question. It’s a great time to do research.”

That’s a good tip for when you negotiate. Or for when you do magic.

Because this is the same exact idea described in a book I read not long ago, by a guy named Gary Kurtz, about the use of misdirection in stage magic.

Kurtz has a name for this bathroom phenomenon. He calls it the off-beat. The off-beat is the relaxation, the lull in attention that happens when the audience thinks the magic trick is over. That’s when the actual sleight-of-hand is done.

I’m thinking of writing a new book. I don’t have a title yet. Maybe I will call it, “10 Commandments of Hypnotists, Pick Up Artists, Comedians, Cult Leaders, Copywriters, Door-To-Door Salesmen, NLP Trainers, Storytellers, Professional Negotiators, and Stage Magicians.”

The topic would be core ideas I’ve picked up from a bunch of far-flung fields, which are actually all the same field – one that’s all about controlling attention, heightening emotions, guiding people to an outcome.

I’m only thinking about this book right now. But if you have any input you’d like to give me — stories you think I can include, other fields I didn’t think of, specific techniques you have in mind — hit reply and let me know.

​​I don’t have anything to promise you in return, except my gratitude, and an acknowledgement in the book if I ever do put it out. Thanks in advance.

Not comfortable asking for more money?

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Trevor “Toe Cracker” Crook was at the front of the room, finishing his presentation, and was about to launch into the pitch for his offer.

“How many of you regularly close 5-figure copywriting contracts?” he asked.

You’re supposed to participate if you’re in the audience at a conference, and give the speaker some signs of life. So I raised my hand.

I was sitting in the front row. I glanced over my shoulder. I realized that, out of 25+ other copywriters in the room, maybe two or three also had their hand up.

I felt sheepish. I put my hand down.

The fact is, I’m not overwhelmingly confident. I’m certainly not assertive or demanding.

And yet, a couple years ago, back when I was still regularly taking on client work, I was closing 5-figure deals matter-of-factly. And if I were taking on a big project now, I wouldn’t have any trouble asking for — and probably getting — $15k or $20k, upfront, depending on what needs to be done.

In my experience, asking for more money is not a matter of confidence, in the sense of some unshakeable self-belief. Nor is it a matter of assertiveness.

It’s really about systematically putting yourself into a situation where neither of those is needed. As negotiation coach Jim Camp, who guided Fortune 100 CEOs and revamped the FBI’s hostage negotiation process, had to say:

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I’ve got wonderful non-assertive people that just do magnificent jobs in negotiation. But that’s because they have the tools. They don’t need to be assertive. Assertive is not a trait that is to be desired in negotiation by any means.

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I’m thinking about putting on a training in June about how to be comfortable charging more. This isn’t only about copywriting work. I’ve been selling courses, live presentations, and consulting to make up for the fact I rarely work with copywriting clients any more. I’ve found the same principles apply whenever money changes hands.

If such a training is something that would interest you, hit reply and let me know. In case there’s enough interest, I will put it on.

Reader wants to join my Insights & More Book Club, but doesn’t want to read

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This morning, I woke up to find a hot inquiry from a potential buyer:

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Hey john!

I wanna ask you a question about this insights book club thing you’re selling.

I’m interested in it but since I basically have a 10+ “must read” book list that’s pending at all times, realistically, I’m not sure if I’ll be able to read the “insight book” along with you.

Do you think this “mastermind” is still worth a buy?

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How to respond? My natural instinct would be to smile, unpack my sample set of stainless steel pots and pans, and start my pitch, explaining how these pots and pans pay for themselves in just two months’ time, thanks to the energy savings and reduction in food wastage. “As an added bonus, they maximize taste thanks to the Silichromatic Ring™ and Redi-Temp® Valve!”

But I stopped myself from doing what comes naturally. Instead, I responded like this:

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Fair question. I’d like to answer it but how can I? What would a mastermind call be worth to you? What would you want to get out of it in order for it to be worth $15/month to you?

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The only reason I thought and responded like this is because I am now going through Jim Camp’s book Start With No, for maybe the fourth time in five years.

I’m going through Camp’s book for the fourth time because, as I’ve written before, I believe books are the most condensed and most useful sources of ideas and information. They give you the kind of depth you will not find in any other format. They stimulate thinking in a way that no other format can match. What’s more, they offer the best value for your money. You should hate books if you’re selling info, and love them if you’re buying info.

Of course, you have to put in some work to get that value out of a book. Reading it, taking notes, thinking a bit, maybe even rereading, once, twice, or four times, like I’m doing with Camp.

​​Which brings me back to my Insights & More Book Club, and to that inquiry I got this morning.

I’ve opened the doors to the Insights & More Book Club to new members for a few days. I will close the doors again tomorrow. We are starting a new book right now for March and April, and it doesn’t make sense to have people join mid-way.

After my Camp-inspired response above, the potential new member of my book club thought for a bit. He decided it makes sense for him to join even if he has no time to read the actual books. I doubt that’s something I could have sold him on with my pots-and-pans sales shtick. And it’s not something I will try to sell you on either.

But if you are interested in the Insights & More Book Club, whether for the books themselves, for company to help you unlock value out of those books, or for other reasons of your own, you will have to sign up to my email newsletter as a first step. You can do that here. You have until tomorrow, February 27.

The BYAF compliance method

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“Can I move? I’m better when I move.”

There’s a sexy scene in the 1969 classic Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid:

Butch and Sundance are American outlaws who have run away to Bolivia. They’re trying to get work at a Bolivian silver mine.

The boss at the mine wants to see if either Butch or Sundance can shoot a gun. What a joke. Sundance is the fastest and deadliest gun in the West.

So the boss throws a rock 30 feet away. “Hit that,” he says.

Sundance straightens his arm… takes aim… fires and misses.
​
The boss spits on the ground. He turns around and starts to walk away.

“Can I move?” Sundance asks.

“Move?” the boss says. “What the hell you mean move?”

In a split second, Sundance squats down, pulls out his gun, shoots the rock and then shoots it again while it’s midair, splitting it in two.

In other words:​​

It’s not common sense… but sometimes you get better results if you give people some space to move.

A while back, I read an academic paper about something called the BYAF compliance method.

​​BYAF = but you are free.

​​You make a request, and you tell people they are free to say no. It’s supposed to double the number of yeses you get.

It also goes against all copywriting dogma.

​​Copywriters will tell you that you should close off all doors… conclusively answer all objections… and PUSH PUSH PUSH for the sale.

So who’s right?

The BYAF crowd has 42 scientific studies on its side.

​​The “slam all the doors shut” copywriters have hundreds of millions or billions of dollars worth of sales behind them.

You might think the conclusion is clear. But I think it really depends on who you’re dealing with.

For example, Jim Camp was a negotiation expert who worked with Fortune 500 execs while they negotiated multi-billion-dollar deals.

One of the big tenets of his negotiation system was allowing people to say no.

​​It didn’t mean ending the negotiation… in fact, no was just the beginning.

Because Camp said that in the kinds of negotiations he was involved in, “slamming all the doors shut” so your prospect feels caged in and only has the option you want him to take… well, that was a recipe for an abrupt end to the negotiation, without ever being welcome back for round two.

Does this apply in copywriting?

I definitely think so.

Sure, there are markets where people need you to be a German Shepherd, barking at them so they make their way into the fold in an orderly fashion.

​​But there are other markets, equally as profitable or more so, where it’s better to allow people to move before you ask them to shoot.

And now, if you’d like to sign up for my newsletter:

Click here and fill out the form that appears. But of course, you’re are free to do whatever you choose.

The Law of Reflection

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I expected some blowback to my email yesterday.

For one thing, I was writing about loaded topics — corona, Novak Djokovic, government lockdowns, Prince of Persia.

For another, in the hours after I wrote and scheduled yesterday’s email, the story I was writing about blew up. It went from being something only tennis fans and Australians might know about… to the number one international news items, with the predictable outrage and memery and fixed opinions.

So yes — I was expecting people to write in and tell me how stupid, flippant, and just clearly very wrong my email is.

I should have known better. Because what happened was this:

A bunch of people did write in. Some liked the email and the point I was making. Some offered to be my nemesis (the takeaway of yesterday’s email). Some told me personal stories of their own from the ground in Australia. Some disagreed with the email, in reasoned and civil tones.

But not one person was insulting, aggressive, outraged or seeking to outrage me.

In fact, the last time I can remember getting an outraged response to my emails was over six months ago. The same guy who wrote that outraged response had written me a few inflammatory emails before. So I unsubscribed him from my list, and wrote an email about it the next day.

Like I said, no outrage since. Maybe there’s a lesson in there. In any case, there’s definitely a lesson in here:

“The adversary mirrors you”

That’s from master negotiator Jim Camp. The adversary in Camp’s system is the person you are negotiating with, but it could just as well be a prospect you are looking to sell… a reader you are looking to influence… or a girl you are trying to get on a date.

In fact, Camp’s advice is almost the same as the advice of the late and great pickup coach Tom Torero. Tom used to tell guys that “the girl is your mirror.”

If she looks startled or scared when you approach her… if she won’t stick around to talk to you… if she doesn’t trust you with her phone number… then take a step back. And figure out exactly what you’re projecting into the world, and how you should change it.

In other words, this mirroring stuff isn’t my plea for the world to be civil and boring.

I’m just telling you to figure out how you want your adversaries to feel and act. Relaxed and confident? Fun and playful? Scared and outraged? Then you know what to do. Feel and act that same way yourself.

Or vice versa:

Figure out how you want to feel and act in your life and your business. Just be aware that those are the kinds of prospects you will attract.

If there are enough such prospects, then you’re well in the saddle. But if you don’t have enough prospects who want to feel and act the way you do…

Then you might benefit from the following referral advice from Jim Camp. It is a kind of corollary to Camp’s Law of Reflection above. Camp says:

“What’s the key to getting referrals? It’s simple. Give them.”

Flattery is to listening as sincere compliments are to…?

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Today I have an idea that might help you if you ever talk to friends, clients, or even random strangers like your wife or husband.

I thought of it yesterday when I saw a family of three walking in the park.

Mom was trying to have a serious conversation with dad. Meanwhile, their 8-year-old daughter kept trying to get mom’s attention:

“Mom! Mom! Mom!”

So in between sentences to dad, mom put her hand on the back of the little girl’s head and said, “Tell me, sweetie.”

The girl rattled off a few sentences, a typical 8-year-old’s story that goes nowhere.

“That’s great,” the mom said. And then she picked up the conversation with dad right where she had left off.

Meanwhile the daughter, satisfied at having made an important point, went back to playing and left her parents to talk in peace for a few moments.

A few days ago, I wrote that flattery works great. Well, so does listening, even if you only make a show of it. That’s what I was seeing in that family scene above.

But just as sincere compliments are a step beyond flattery… there’s also a step beyond listening.

Negotiation coach Jim Camp called it blank slating.

That’s when you drop your preconceived assumptions and ideas… give the other party your full attention… and allow them to draw on your mental etch-a-sketch.

Camp thought blank slating is so important that he made it a cornerstone of his negotiation system, which was used in billion-dollar deals as well as in hostage situations (FBI’s Chris Voss was one of Camp’s students).

Blank slating is not easy. But with practice, it becomes possible.

Except… why? Why go to the trouble?

If plain old, in-one-ear-and-out-the-other listening works already… why put in the effort and practice needed to blank slating?

Only this:

Because you’ll uncover information you wouldn’t uncover otherwise.

And this:

Because you’ll build deeper rapport.

And this:

Because your own brain might kick in, and produce new options and alternatives you hadn’t thought of when you entered this situation.

Finally, because you might avoid some real bad situations on occasion. Speaking of which, here’s a bit of barber-shop humor that comedian Norm MacDonald once did on Conan O’Brien:

I looked in the mirror and all I see is a fat old man.
So I says to my wife, I says to her:
Sweetheart I feel old and fat.
I need you to give me a real compliment.
So she says, your eyesight is perfect!
So I says to her, you dirty dog!

Now let me leave you with another analogy:

Listening is to this blog… as blank slating is to…?

If you said my daily email newsletter, you win the prize for most attentive and open-minded. Click here in case you’d like to sign up.

Where to go when a negotiation hits no

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Do you dread having to negotiate?

Is it worse than having to take a cold shower in the middle of January in a bathroom without heating?

If so, maybe the following news item will help:

Women’s tennis world no. 2 Naomi Osaka just shocked the world by withdrawing from the French Open. As you might know, the French Open is one of the four Grand Slams, the biggest tennis tournaments of the year.

It all started a week ago, a few days before the French Open began.

That’s when Osaka wrote a post on Instagram, saying she won’t do press appearances during the tournament. Talking to the press is harmful to her mental health, Osaka said, and it feels like kicking a person when they’re down.

This created a lot of buzz in the tennis world.

A few days later, the French Tennis Federation, along with the other organizing bodies of the Grand Slam tournaments, put out a statement.

They offered support to Osaka, but also said she would be fined each time she failed to talk with the press. The fines would escalate. Eventually, Osaka could be disqualified from the tournament, and even banned from participating in future Grand Slams.

That’s when Naomi Osaka decided to withdraw.

​​She wrote to the tournament organizers for not explaining her position in a better way. And she said she wants to work together in finding a solution. But for now, she is taking time off the court.

To which the French Tennis Federation made its own statement. They said they were sad and sorry at Osaka’s decision, and they want to work with athletes to ensure their well-being. They wish Osaka all the best, and they look forward to seeing her next year.

I don’t know what the outcome of this will be. I just want to point out that everything in life, at least anything that has to do with another person, is a negotiation.

And like negotiation coach Jim Camp used to say, negotiation starts with no.

This is not a matter of hard-line posturing, or telling people to take it or leave it, or walking away.

But real negotiation starts with no. And it doesn’t end with yes.

When I first heard Jim Camp say this, it sounded bizarre or intentionally contrarian. But when you look at negotiations in the real world, like the Naomi Osaka situation above, it becomes obvious Camp is right.

Naomi said no.

Then the tournament organizers came back and said no in their own terms.

Then Naomi came back, and said no in a different way.

And all throughout, the two parties are still engaged, are still talking, and are still working together to reach an agreement.

The question then is how to best manage that process.

What do you do when the other side says no… and you say no… and yet you both have an interest in working together in some way?

The best guide I know for that is Camp’s book, of course titled Start With No.

​​It lays out a system for negotiation, so you can get to an outcome you want, while minimizing that “cold bathroom” feel.

Plus if you write sales copy, this book might have the knock-on effect at making you more persuasive. (A couple of million-dollar marketers say this book is their favorite copywriting book, even though it never mentions the topic.)

Fair warning:

Camp’s book is dense and it might take multiple reads to grasp. But in case you’re curious, here’s the link for more info:

https://bejakovic.com/start-with-no

3 reasons to 3+ your prospect

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Negotiation expert Jim Camp promoted a technique he called 3+. Camp said to cover each point of your negotiation at least 3 times in slightly different language.

“So you’re saying you want to subscribe to my email newsletter today. Is that right?”

“Are there any reasons you’d rather wait to subscribe?”

“And if you do get to the end of this post where the optin is, would you still be interested in subscribing? Are you sure?”

Camp did 3+ because he wanted to get to a decision that sticks, rather than just a flaky agreement.

But you can do something similar to get a click or a purchase from a prospect, even a flaky one. All you have to do is repeat your basic promise at least three times.

Don’t worry about annoying your reader. You won’t annoy him, as long as you surround your promise with new info. Phrase your promise in a new and surprising way. But keep hammering away at it.

Really? Yes. Because there are at least three reasons why this 3+ stuff works in sales copy.

One is that repetition creates belief. It shouldn’t, but it does. Just look at the stump speeches of politicians, or the headlines of the major news outlets. Repeat an outlandish idea one, two, three or more times, and people will adopt it as their own.

But that’s not all. Because repetition also creates desire. You’re greasing the groove.

Promise me something once, and I only hear your words. Promise me something twice, and I’m starting to imagine your promise being a reality. Make the same promise three or more times, and I’m getting impatient for the outcome.

But there’s a third and possibly most important reason to repeat your message over and over and over. And that’s the fact we’re living in a noisy world. Your reader doesn’t hear your whole message. He is distracted. He skims. He checks his phone. His mind is elsewhere.

You think you have his whole attention. You don’t. But you can still get your message across, if you keep repeating it. How many times? At least three. More is better.

None of this is new. Almost 300 years ago, Samuel Johnson said:

“Promise, large promise, is the soul of an advertisement.”

You might already know that quote. What few people know is that Johnson kept talking after the dictaphone stopped recording.

“Yes,” Johnson said, “promise is the soul of an advertisement. But repetition, constant repetition, is the body of an advertisement. So keep repeating your promise to make it more real. Even if you get tired of it. Over and over. Because eventually, your prospect will hear you. And then he will buy.”

By the way, remember that 3+ from the start of this post? About subscribing to my email newsletter? You do?

Well, I’m not sure if you’re still up for subscribing. In case you are, here’s where to go.

“… I want to think about it”

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In a private and exclusive Facebook group I am lucky to be a member of, marketer Travis Sago asked the following:

“How do you respond to, ‘I want to think about it?'”

Travis was talking about doing one-on-one sales, rather than persuading the masses.

His question ties in nicely to my post from yesterday. That was about A-list copywriter Gary Bencivenga, and the failure he experienced when trying to sell in person.

So ask yourself. How would you respond if a prospect wants time to think about buying whatever you’re selling?

If you know online marketing, you might spike up the urgency.

“Only 72 left in stock!”

“The timer is ticking! Once it runs out, this offer will be taken down!”

“The price will go up after midnight!”

That’s not what Travis recommends. Instead, this is what he says:

“Take all the time you need. What had you considering this at all?”

That’s very clever and nuanced. It sums up, in two sentences, much wisdom that came from negotiation coach Jim Camp. Camp talked about things like going for the no… eliminating your own neediness… and using open-ended questions to get your adversary to paint a vision of his own pain.

Camp’s system was used in big ticket, multi-million dollar negotiations. Travis is using it to sell $5k and $10k and $50k offers. He says this approach has made him millions, and I believe him.

So now you know an effective way to deal with an important objection in one-on-one sales.

But what if you’re doing online mass marketing, or writing sales copy? Can you profit from Travis’s laid-back system? Or would using it be suicide?

After years of slow thinking, I have one or two thoughts on the matter. And maybe, I will share them some time soon, after the timer runs out. If you want to hear what I have to say, you can sign up for my email newsletter.